CFI’s Skeptics Get Naturopaths to Disown Homeopathy, Reiki & Energy Therapy on TV
June 23, 2010
While I don't usually get the warmest welcome defending atheism on the religious program the Michael Coren Show, yesterday my nemesis Coren was possibly even harder on a couple of naturopaths that he had on as part of a show on Alternative Medicine that we had in fact recommended to him and his producers. These were Dr. Philip Rouchotas, Associate Professor, Canadian College of Naturopathic Medicine, and naturopathic doctor George Tardik. On the skeptic side, CFI put up their own Behzad Elahi and Michael Kruse, spokepeople with our Committee for the Advancement of Scientific Skepticism.
The show should be available from the CTS TV website in the next week
The panel tackled everything from homeopathy to chiropractics to the limits of fish oil treatment. Observing the recording from my comfortable seat off set, some highlights included moderator Michael Coren putting the altmed practitioners on the hot seat, laughing at a treatment regime he had been given involving wearing different types of shoes, and finally insisting "I've seen a lot of chiropractor frauds...I wouldn't trust them with a cat, and I don't even have a cat." Plus, a cornered Dr. Rouchotas, who would oddly refer to everyone as "sir", admits "I'm probably more skeptical of homeopathy than you are".
Here follows reports from Behzad and Michael.
Behzad Elahi:
It was a great experience for both of us. although the naturopaths attending the show (Mr Philip Rouchotas and Mr George Tardik) tried to validate their position by confessing that they disagree with Homeopathy, Reiki, Energy Therapy, and crytal ball healing practices which is by itself a great success, and stuck to their best shot which was herbal medication the end result was not what they expected. They tried to personalize the debate by providing anecdotal evidence, and emotional responses which have been answered properly and effectively by us and it didn’t go very well for them.
Pseudoscience is growing, and we have to be vigilant to stop the nonsense at its roots. According to a Health Canada survey 43% of Canadians think that alternative medicine is comparable to real medicine, a potentially dangerous idea which reminds us about our responsibility to enlighten and inform society by scientifically sound evidence.
Michael Kruse
The opportunity to debate an alternative medical practitioner is a bit of a daunting one; given that I am not a doctor nor experienced at debating. On the Michael Coren Show, my expectations did not match the result and it is interesting the changes being attempted in the practice of naturopathic medicine. Drs. Tardik and Rouchotas did a poor job of defining Naturopathic medicine at the start, but instead of going to bat for the host of alternative therapies that skeptics routinely attack, namely energy work and homeopathy, they chose instead to bring science to the table.
Both gentlemen threw homeopathy under the bus and, both on and off camera, disavowed ever being taken in by it or using it in their practice. After the show, however, Rouchotas was hesitant to describe why it is still being taught at the Canadian College of Naturopathic Medicine, where he is an associate professor, in light of many ND’s apparent disbelief of the practice and its implausibility. He was not able to give us a good answer.
It is interesting what was not discussed, namely the roots of the philosophy behind naturopathy. Not once did either ND use the words “vitalistic” or “holistic”. They did not warn about toxins and vilify modern medicine. In fact they both seemed eager to be considered a part of the modern model of science-based health care and rejected the more extreme claims of some of their colleagues. In my opinion, they are attempting to seek legitimacy by hiding the ugly cousin of vitalism and magical thinking that is at the root of the current state of affairs. To be fair, we were unable to get to this part of the debate and I am eager to find out their answer.
150 years ago modern medicine was in the same place as naturopathy today: beholden to a large compendium of treatments that may or may not have worked and based on a view of how the body works that was incomplete, at best, or seriously fantastical at worst. Medical treatments at that time were subjected repeatedly to an ever increasing array of experimental tools and statistical methods designed to uncover the veracity of the claims. Naturopathy seems 150 years late to the table, but if they are willing to go through the same process, and willing to let go of those modalities that are completely implausible, like reiki or homeopathy, then I will give them the benefit of the doubt. They have a long way to go.
Both Behzad and Michael did a great job, under the pressures of coming up with responses to random questions and sometimes demands for detailed examples in a given area you only became an expert in the night before, and sustaining this treatment for over 45 minutes! Not an easy job, I assure you.
Comments:
#2 Robert Sentenza (Guest) on Friday June 25, 2010 at 7:55pm
” They seemed genuinely trying to reform their own profession. “
No they have not. They have not shown any indication that they wish to make their professions more science based. They have however, become more sophisticated in their rhetoric and how they present themselves to the public.
” Was the goal to raise debate and improve health policy in Ontario or gain some cheap points at the naturpaths expense? “
To actually have a debate. To date, almost all of the information about naturopathy and other forms of alt-med have only come from the proponents. There has been very little criticism in the public sphere. This is changing.
“If there really is an anti-homeopathy, anti-vitalism movement inside naturopathy…”
I have seen no evidence that any such movement exists. A search of most Naturopathic clinics or colleges will show references to vitalism or homeopathy. For instance, this page describes the Robert Schad Naturopathic Clinic and what modalities are used their. They mention homeopathy, and traditional chinese medicine (which includes references to Qi).
#3 Christoph (Guest) on Wednesday June 30, 2010 at 2:47pm
Thank you for efforts to educate the public re the nature of Natureopathy. Good strategy to get the practioners to distance themselves from the crazier elements of their profession. Eventually they will have nothing left!
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#18 tkip (Guest) on Sunday July 31, 2011 at 4:42pm
I didn’t see this episode but I went to a naturopath for several months regarding stomach issues my family physician diagnosed as IBS.
The naturopath was recommended through a local health food store I bought some supplements from and she assessed me. And then the long nightmare began.
This woman never gave me a straight answer. Couldn’t make a definite diagnosis at all. She sold me hundreds of dollars of supplements per session that never worked. Kept making mistakes.
She would tell me she would order supplements for next session but then forget. She mixed her treatments up and prescribed the same treatment twice without realizing it.
She was opposed to imaging involving radiation and tried selling me supplements to “protect” me. She learned of my unrelated hip problems and referral pain and said she could cure it with a magnet and vitamin injections despite no known cause of pain at the time.
She sold me protein supplement powder when I lost a lot of weight and muscle mass while on her elimination diet. Turns out the powder, which I purchased through her office was in fact, a liver detox powder meant for short term use only.
She suggested in my last session with her that we could do a stool test, looking for bacteria when I had already seen her multiple times and we had talked at length of a bacteria cause and only now did she recommend this test when it could have been done at the beginning and by this point I had already spent 2k seeing her.
I had enough and walked away. She was incompetent and a con artist. I will never deal with a naturopath again.
#1 doubting-the-doubters (Guest) on Wednesday June 23, 2010 at 7:23pm
I guess every rational skeptic has a blind spot where they become ‘religous’. Mr Trottier is revealing that his is alternative medicine. Why not work with these guys towards making alt-med more scientific? They seemed genuinely trying to reform their own profession. Why not help them? Kruse at least has maintained a higher standard of open minded inquiry in his comments.
Seriously, this blog has some pretty shameless spin that causes me to reflect on the maturity of the other ‘skeptics’ involved. Was the goal to raise debate and improve health policy in Ontario or gain some cheap points at the naturpaths expense? Has your self-proclaimed victory at the debate helped any Ontarians to make a better decisions about their health care? Bad alt-med can kill, fellas. This shouldn’t be about high-fives after the debate is over. It ain’t high school.
There is a lot of junky alternative medicine out there, but if the CSI is going to treat - a priori - *every* type of therapy as ineffective/dangerous and *every* practitioner as if they are a nut jobs, then they are going to lose the respect that they have earned so far.
If there really is an anti-homeopathy, anti-vitalism movement inside naturopathy, why not seize the opportunity to engage/support this progress instead of making the facile claim that CSI somehow cornered a couple of wimpering NDs into abandoning these antiquated notions?
It’s easy to know your enemy. Knowing how and when to make your enemy your friend is what separates the men from the boys.
Tips for next time: get specific, bring some data and stop calling them ‘quacks’. The lack of any specific claims make you look unfocused, the lack of data makes you look like you haven’t bothered to research the thing you are against and the name calling makes you look - well, you know what the name calling makes you look like. They seemed more reasonable and science oriented than you did.
Good luck.